Ep. 15 - LGBTQ+ advocacy and running for Congress with Callie Butcher
#15 This episode’s guest is Callie Butcher! Callie (she/her) is a Dallas-based attorney, community leader, and vocal advocate for the rights of the LGBTQ+ community.
Can you believe Callie traveled from Dallas to Austin 20 TIMES during the 2023 Texas legislative session? (and became a meme along the way) AND she ran for Congress, making history as the first openly transgender candidate to appear on a major party primary ballot.
Callie’s a badass and I can’t wait for you to meet her.
You can find Callie on Instagram, and her firm’s website is www.butcherlegalgroup.com.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
SB14 hearing where Callie became a meme (TW: transphobic language)
Equality Texas
Lambda Legal
TENT (Transgender Education Network of Texas)
Black Tie Dinner
Everyday Trans Activism is a production of Parents of Trans Youth, a social impact business providing learning, support, and community to parents and caregivers of transgender, nonbinary, and gender-diverse kids.
Host Mandy Giles (she/her) is the Texas parent of two transgender young adults and a fierce advocate for trans kids, their families, and the transgender community.
* Subscribe to the podcast THIS MINUTE to never miss an episode (the horror!)
* Purchase smart and snazzy podcast merch
* Join the Parents of Trans Youth email list for tasteful and tantalizing tidbits sent to your inbox
* Get social with us on Instagram or Facebook
Thanks for listening!
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Mandy: Hey y'all, and welcome to Everyday Trans Activism. I am your host, Mandy Giles. My pronouns are she/her, and I'm the parent of two transgender young adults and the founder of Parents of Trans Youth. Today's guest is Callie Butcher. Callie is a Dallas-based attorney, community leader, and vocal advocate for the rights of the LGBTQ+ community.
Callie has been recognized in the 2021 through 2024 editions of The Best Lawyers as a “Ones to Watch in America” and “Women in The Law: Ones To Watch.” Callie was also named as one of D Magazine's (D as in the big D Dallas) Best Lawyers Under 40 in 2024, and was named a 2022 “Top Women Lawyer” by Texas Diversity Council.
Callie is the immediate past president of the Dallas LGBT Bar Association and was the first openly transgender person to serve on the board of the Dallas Bar Association. When not working, Callie volunteers with local LGBTQ+ organizations, including Lambda Legal, where she serves as co-chair of its Dallas Leadership Committee and Black Tie Dinner, where she serves on the board and as a member of the events and operations committee.
In March 2024, Callie made history by becoming the first openly transgender candidate to appear on a major party primary ballot for U.S. Congress in Texas history.
And in her free time, I mean, I don't know who you're kidding, this doesn't sound like you have any free time. You enjoy spending time with your partner and two children. Callie, welcome! Thank you so much for being with me today.
Callie: Yeah, no, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Mandy: So we met during the 2023 legislative session, I'm pretty sure. We were both up at the Capitol a bunch testifying against the many, many anti-LGBTQ laws. I saw you so much and you were so knowledgeable and obviously knew a lot about the law. Yeah. I actually thought that you were an Equality Texas employee for a while and I didn't ever think like, Oh, she might be a lawyer.
Um, so tell me, well, actually I read a couple of articles about you in preparation, and you know, your candidacy and all that kind of stuff. And I saw in a couple that you made at least 20 trips to Austin. So you have me beat, I think like three times over, I think I only made it up like seven or eight times.
And. This is really funny. I read that you became a meme. And so, and then I had to look that up and I didn't realize you were sitting at THAT table. So where do you want to start with all that about last year's legislative session? That awful day or we don't need to like get into trauma. Um, but yeah, where do you want to start with all that?
Callie: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, we can start at the beginning because I think the SB14 hearing was like right at the beginning of session. It was one of the first Senate hearings on the anti-trans bills last session. And yeah, so I was down there for that, I think, a couple days before that they had SB15, the college sports ban.
And then I came down, uh, for SB 14 along with a couple other similar bills that were heard that same day. And yeah, I ended up at the table with the lovely, uh, Dr. Hotze, who, you know, we had heard all day, right. spout, uh, anti LGBT, anti-trans rhetoric. So I wasn't surprised, right, by what was gonna come out of his mouth.
I expected you know, his usual. usual kind of rhetoric. But I have a problem holding my face still. And I will say as a lawyer, it's maybe not the best, uh, skill, but when I hear things that I am like, just disgusted by, I tend to make facial reactions. So, so yeah, I mean, I was, yeah, I was sitting at that table and it was just, you know, hearing him argue with Senator Menendez around, you know, just general decency and respect for, for other human beings and, you know, not making assumptions about what people are, who people are, how they live their lives. Um, and understanding that the things that come out of your mouth can be hurtful to other people.
Um, you know, I think that was one, it was, it was good. It was early in session and it was, uh, you know, a moment where I saw, you know, Senator Menendez once again, stand up for, for our community. And, you know, that was really needed after a really long day, um, that day. And, you know, I think for me, I was like, I didn't actually expect them to do anything to, to him. Uh, but I love, he said the word bullshit. At which point he was expelled, regardless of all of the other things he said, which was just a, just a wild moment.
And, uh, you know, then just moments later, you know, it was my turn to speak so it was you know, I think I think it's difficult right when you're sitting in in the Capitol, and I'm sure you've experienced this. And there are people who have strongly held beliefs that go against you personally, as, as who you are or who go against your family members and who you know they are and they, they have no regard for, for what they're doing to you mentally, emotionally.
And in fact, I think kind of it's the point, right? They're trying, they know they're hurting you and they want to hurt you. And I think it's difficult, right? To sit there and say, we're debating these bills, which, In my mind, these aren't really issues for debate. Uh, we shouldn't be, they aren't really proper for debate.
We're talking about respecting humans at a very basic level. But we've created a debate around it and people like Dr. Hotze have created a debate around it. And so I think it's difficult to hear those things and then, you know, it's nice to say your piece, but you know, you find that when you're in a room like the, that Senate hearing, right? You're surrounded by people who maybe feel more like Dr. Hotze than, you know, feel like respecting trans folks.
Mandy: Wow, I, well, I can relate by not being able to, I guess control emotions. I have zero poker face. Like my kids say, like, you're the worst liar, mom. You cannot, like, even if I try to keep something secret, like, Oh, we're going somewhere fun. I can't do it. So if I had been at that table, there is, I actually, I probably would have clawed his eyes out, but, and then they would have ejected me, but probably not him.
Um, so, and like the fact, Oh my gosh, I'm not going to repeat what he said at all, but like, so, so many obvious slurs and just horrible. I mean, you've already said just degrading things about other human beings and the thing that that got him ejected. Now I can't even remember the chair of the committee, but it was like, Oh, sorry, you said bullshit. You gotta leave now. And oh, that's the line you're going to draw.
It would have been hard for me to even breathe the same air as that human being. And also, like you said, knowing that probably the majority of the people around that table on that committee, well, the fact that they, that no one else besides Senator Menendez has said, like, hold on a minute, this is not appropriate. They didn't say anything that they believe that.
Kudos to you for even Just say your piece after hearing all that nonsense, and the debate quote debate that happened after that. So, what a wild ride.
Callie: Yeah, yeah, and I think it was the next morning when I started getting texts from, from folks like Gordy from Equality Texas and some other people and they were like, um, there's this screen capture of you and it's going around and I was like, I was like, wait, what did I do?
Mandy: I looked for the meme. I, I mean, I don't know how to search for meme like Callie Butcher meme. Of course, that's probably not how to do it, but I did find a tiny clip of some of, what his testimony or whatever it was, and your just excellent facial expressions. So I can only imagine.
Maybe if you give me permission, I'm going to have to ask for that and we'll, we'll share it just to, to highlight the ridiculousness of that situation.
Um, okay. So 20 times, wow. How did you even make that happen with a job and, and family? And, obviously that meant so much to you.
Is that the first time that you, okay, this is many questions, but the, that you've been involved in a legislative session or have you been doing this for a while or?
Callie: It was my first time being like personally involved in a legislative session. You know, I've locally in Dallas, I had been involved in, in promoting and working towards, you know, LGBT rights. Um, but I had not, you know, been involved in the legislative session directly.
And, you know, I had in my legal career, I used to work at a very large firm. And my career was focused on patent litigation. And a few years ago, uh, right after I transitioned, you know, I started doing a lot more pro bono work in the LGBT space. Um, I really found, you know, that this was the space that I was passionate about. I had skills, um, that I developed over my career that I could use to help my, you know, LGBT community.
And I just started doing more and more of it. And eventually I realized I really needed to, to move on and, and do something other than work at this large firm where I had the ability to focus on, on the work that I felt really mattered at this moment. Um, so I started my own firm, at the end of 2022.
And that really, gave me a lot more freedom to do things like go down to the Capitol on a regular basis. So, you know, that plus the, the grace of my spouse and taking over, you know, childcare duties often, and my parents coming in to help take care of the kids and yeah, I mean, it was a lot of, a lot of trips, you know, sometimes on the Von Lane, if I was lucky, sometimes just in the car, you know, depending on how, how much notice we had for, uh, for a hearing.
Um, But, you know, it was a lot of, a lot of back and forth. It was a lot of get home, and then turn around and come back. Um, so, you know, it was kind of a wild ride, I would say. You know, I didn't, I didn't fully know what to expect, right? It was my first time really jumping in. And, you know, I'd seen good friends of mine, like the Gonzalezes, uh, down there advocating and felt very inspired by, by them.
And it felt like I really needed to, to join the fight. And once I was in. You know, I, there wasn't really, you know, stepping out. So.
Mandy: That I can relate to that like the first time that I testified it was in, um, I guess 2021. It was on the, one of the sports bills and same - I had no idea what to expect. Mainly I was just worried about like, okay, where, where do I put my purse when I'm testifying? Like, where do I sit somewhere? I don't know. And it was like during still COVID-ish. And so, uh, it was, the rooms were weird and like, they weren't letting people in. It was all strange.
And, uh, but once I did it and once I would actually that and the, the being with community and like, it was almost like watching sports, if I watched sports, which I really don't, but you know, the booing and the cheering, whatever it was like, I am coming back as much as possible.
And just having that power of, I, anybody can have their two minutes to say whatever you want. And I'm like, I think I, I don't know, I must've missed something in high school or college about knowing that that was possible.
Callie: yeah, no, it's, it's, I think it's important, right? And I think we've seen a lot more people stepping up over the last few years to, to come in and give their testimony and make their voice heard, which I think is really, really critical. You know, even if the bills don't go our way, I think it's incredibly important to have that record and to have, you know, those things said out loud, because they need to be said, our community needs to, to be heard.
Even if the, the legislators on the other end aren't listening, there are people in our community who are listening. And I think that that's really, really important. And you know, you say about the two minutes and anyone can speak, you know, there's a lot of things that are screwed up in Texas and they're not always listening and they're often trying to cut us off and trying to restrict testimony.
But I will say, you know, I have friends in Oklahoma who do this work and they don't get that opportunity. That's not, that's not afforded to them.
Mandy: Okay. I didn't know that.
Callie: are, we are a little lucky, you know, in Texas that we do get to go and we get to say our, say our piece and be there and be heard. And so I think, you know, the fact that we have that option, I felt like I had to do it. I had to be back. I had to talk to them.
Yeah, it was just really, really critical and I think, you know, people like you and and so many others who I saw at the Capitol over and over and over again. It's just, really important work and it's, you know, it takes a lot of time and I, I'm thankful that people are doing it.
Mandy: I'm wondering if your experience or your, your lens as an attorney informed or influenced your experience there. One of the reasons my husband wanted to go and testify at first when I did it, he was like, I'm a lawyer. I've got to do this. Like he's a trial lawyer and I was like, well, it’s a little different sweetie.
Like, you know, um, but, but he was really excited. He’s like, this is the stage. Uh, and I wonder if like, if, if there. If maybe you think you see the process differently or bring something different, that non-lawyers don't.
Callie: Yeah, no, I think, I think definitely I do, you know, I think most of my testimony, right, I think would, I would center it around, legal arguments, um, analysis of the bills and, I think less, less from my personal experience. experience and perspective. You know, I think there's a lot of people there who are giving really great testimony on how they're personally affected and harmed, by this legislation that's being proposed, or on the rare occasion, how they'd be benefited by a positive LGBT bill that's being considered.
Um, but you know, to me, I think, you know, you know, it's important to point out where where bills are potentially gonna put the state at risk of liability, cost the taxpayers money, where there's inconsistencies between a bill being proposed and legislation that's already on the books. Um, you know, those were kinds of things I tried to try to do throughout the session, uh, both in testimony as well as in meetings with, with legislators, you know, outside of committee hearings.
Mandy: You met with legislators? Did you meet with Republican legislators? Ah, okay. How did that go?
Callie: Um, well, there are certain legislators that I, that I don't meet with, um, but. But, um, mainly they don't want to hear from me either. Um, but you know, it, it goes okay. You know, I think it's, it's important to have those conversations. I think if you approach it, you know, my, my career, right, I often have to deal with people who are vehemently opposed to whatever the position I am presenting.
Mandy: Well, that's true.
Callie: And, um, so I'm used to having those conversations. I'm used to having, you know, walking in and maybe ultimately, we're gonna leave agreeing to disagree, but we've, we've made the argument, we've had the discussion and maybe we've planted some seeds in their mind about what, you know, what's really happening here and what's really, you know, should happen going forward.
And I think, you know, most of them were fairly respectful. Their staff were respectful and, um, I think it was generally, you know, generally okay. Were they amenable to the suggestions that I was making or to my, to my experience? Um, no, not, not, not usually. But I think there's still important conversations to have.
Um, and then I think, you know, we have a lot of really great allies down at the Capitol. We need more. But you know, there's a lot of people that, that are there who are Democrats who are working really hard and helping them take a little load off their staff and, and working with them, um, is, is also something I was happy to do and proud to do.
Mandy: Well, more power to you. I did that only a couple of times with one of my kids and I clearly, I don't have maybe as, either the experience of being in a situation where you're going into knowing that someone is disagreeing with you, or maybe I just have super thin skin, but, um, it was not as productive and experience, I should say, but I'm glad that, that you did that.
So I wanted to talk about your campaign for Texas Congressional District 32. What made you want to run?
Callie: Yeah. So, um, the idea of running, I had planned to run before I started coming down to the Capitol. That was already on my radar and it was something was strongly considering. Um, but I think I was, the need for it was solidified by my experience, um, at the, at the Capitol. You know, I just, and I'm sure you've experienced this, like I said, we have a lot of great allies there and we need them and they're working hard and they're trying their best, but you know, many of them aren't, aren't trans. None of them are trans actually. And, you know, they don't necessarily have direct experience with kind of the issues that are being discussed, especially on these anti-trans bills and they try their best, but that frustration of sitting in the gallery and hearing the debate happen and feeling like, You're getting it wrong. Can you say this? And we, you
Mandy: trying – so close.
Callie: You’re trying to text them and say, no, you need to ask this question. And, just feeling like what we really need is a voice in power in a position where they can't be ignored, where they have a say, where they can propose bills, where they can do all of these things. We need a trans voice there.
You know, I, I looked at running at the state house level. But really, you know, I think my, my experience in Austin and across the country, you know, I really saw that at the state level, the odds are so stacked against us. Um, and that we're seeing the same harm that's happening in Texas, happen in Florida and happen in Mississippi and Alabama and, you know, just everywhere across the, anywhere that's a Republican-controlled legislature, we're seeing harm and we really, really need federal help.
Someone to step in and say, this is the law. Trans kids can get medical care. We're going to do something about it. And so the place to do that is, is Congress. Laws passed by Congress preempt, whatever law exists in the state so we can affect broad, massive change, uh, you know, a system-wide level.
And, you know, to me, that was, that was something we needed to do. The numbers in Congress, they don't make a lot of movement, but we're closer to being able to, to move those those houses and get the people elected we need to get, to be able to make real change. And so to me, it felt like the obvious choice was to run for that seat.
It was, it's a very democratic seat. It's Colin Allred's old seat. And you know, we, we did some polling at the beginning and, you know, we felt we had a, we had a good shot. So we, we jumped in and, you know, I'm, I'm disappointed with, with how it turned out, but I think I'm glad that we did it. And I think reflecting on it, I feel like there was a lot that we accomplished, that we can build from and that, you know, others can build from, which is kind of the point of the whole thing was, was to open up a space and to, to hopefully not be the last person who tries this and to really, you know, lift up other people's voices. And, you know, you know, I hope that's, that's the result.
Mandy: Well, I'm glad that you ran as well. Um, and just as you were talking, having the voice in power and representation and visibility I'm finding is so important and for, well, I'm thinking back to, to what you had said about testifying that maybe the other senators around the table wouldn't listen to what you say, but other people are watching other people in the queer community, the trans community are watching. So even if you were not so successful in your run, knowing that, that other people were watching you and doing a fantastic job with your campaign.
Callie: I think one of the most fulfilling parts, right. And, and one of the things that drove me when towards the end I knew it wasn't going to be successful. the numbers were stacked against us fundraising-wise and where we were. But I, I would get calls nearly every day during the campaign from people who were trans, or their kids were trans, or they already left the state and they used to live in Texas and they have trans kids and they would, just say, thank you for running.
This is so important that you're doing this, or my kids saw this about you and, they're, so inspired and hearing those things, really, even when I felt like, down and, and like, this was, this was a lost cause. Hearing those things really lifted me up and made me really understand that, what I had been saying from the beginning of the campaign, that this campaign wasn't about me, really was true, and that we were seeing that, and people were seeing it, and people were getting the message.
You know, the benefit of it, even if we weren't going to win, which I think was, was awesome. And just, I still, I still like keeps my heart full. Um, now, so
Mandy: I wonder for people who might want to get started in activism or advocacy, whether it's on a national level or state level. Do you have any advice about how to get involved? Especially like you said, say on the state level where the odds are kind of stacked against us and you kind of wonder, do my two minutes make a difference or does that email to my representative make a difference or does anything make a difference?
And, so what advice would you have for people who, who do want to advocate for trans rights?
Callie: well, I think one, I think it all makes a difference. You know, you getting in at any level is a start and I think people should take it at whatever level they feel, comfortable jumping in. One of the best ways to do it is, to, to contact an advocacy org, whether that's Equality Texas, or TENT, or, Lambda Legal, or, you know, whoever you know in your area that's doing this type of work.
And, and maybe that's just going to a pride festival and talking to the organizers. All of those things are, you know, ways you can get connected and start, dipping your toe in the water. I think once you, once you do it, right, it's kind of addicting. I think cause you do realize that it makes a difference and you realize that this is our shot to change things and to move things forwards.
And so, yeah, I encourage people to do that. I mean, Advocacy Days at the Capitol. They happen, towards the beginning of session, usually, and throughout session, and different groups will put them on. It's a really great way to get involved, and, I think the other thing is you don't have to jump in directly into trans advocacy if that's, if that feels too raw or too close, you can get into other issues, there's, there's many other issues, you know, gun violence groups and other things that you can start with that help you feel, maybe more comfortable walking around the Capitol.
And talking about an issue that's not directly related to your identity. Because I do think that can be, that can be difficult. Right? Is when your, your identity is in question. That can be hard. I think there's lots of ways to get involved. And I think if people are interested in doing it, I'd say go for it.
Cause we need everyone we can get. And, and really, it really does make, make a huge difference.
Mandy: that makes me think of, you know, I hadn't really, well, I was going to say, I hadn't really thought about advocating for something that is connected to your identity and how that could be very raw. And I guess the reason why I haven't thought about that is because I do have the privilege of being a, white, cisgender, heterosexual person.
And so there's a lot of things that I am passionate about and I work for that are not connected to my identity. And so that, that is like my privilege is showing. And that kind of leads me to my next question about the role of allies. In whether it might be trans rights or whatever it is. I mean, I'm talking about trans rights, cause that's kind of what this podcast is about.
And I know that people have different views about how, where allies should be. How do they show up? Especially sometimes the moms and where, how vocal should they be or whatever. And so, so I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.
Callie: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a tricky balance, right? Because as an ally, you should not be there to take up all the space and to make it about yourself. It needs to be, you center the people who you are supporting. And I think if you're doing that and your intentions are good, I think the community can tell. That's really the concern.
But I think testimony from allies and allies joining the fight is, it's the way we will win this. Unfortunately, our legislators often listen more to allies than the people who are directly affected by these bills, they feel, I think maybe more connected to people who are directly like them, cis, white, male, if we could get a bunch of cis white male people who are heterosexual to stand up for trans rights, that would be phenomenal. Um, the, the likelihood of that happening seems low, but, I just feel like, unfortunately, that's, that's kind of the state of things.
And, we need those folks. And, I think you can tell when those folks are there and are well-intentioned. And I'm thankful for people, getting into the fight when, when maybe they aren't directly affected. That's, you know, that's big. And I think it shows our legislators that this matters beyond just this small group that they're targeting, that this can have an impact on their votes come election time, that, people do care and that people, unfortunately, that they actually respect, have a problem with what they're doing.
And I think that's incredibly important to make that message heard.
Mandy: That is really good advice. Maybe I need to have like another subgroup of the white cishet men who, who are interested in trans rights. And we all need you to come to be active in whatever way you can. So just a special ally training just for them. Um, well, I want to thank you so much for your time today. How can people reach you if you want them to reach you? Are you promoting anything right now? What do you, where do you want people to go?
Callie: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. It's @thatCallieButcher. And you can find my website for my law firm is butcherlegalgroup.com. Um, if you, you need help or you need a referral, feel free to reach out. You know, I love helping the queer community. If you, if you want to, you know, support people doing great work in this space, you know, I do a lot of work with Lambda Legal. And, you can support them, and donate and they're doing incredible work here in Texas and both in the legislature and in the courts.
Mandy: For sure. The courts, we didn't even talk about the court stuff, but, but that could be a whole other episode on all of the legal side of that stuff.
Listener, if you want to show gratitude for Callie and all of her hard work and amazing knowledge that she has, please consider supporting Lambda Legal, and you can even make a donation to Lambda Legal in her honor, that would be wonderful.
I will put the links to all of these things in the show notes so be sure to check those out. So Callie, thanks again for talking with me and I am sure I will see you soon. Hopefully not at the Capitol, but at something wonderfully fun other than that.
Callie: Yes, definitely. Thank you for having me.
Mandy: I’ll talk to you soon.