Ep. 13 - Community love and bidirectional allyship with Joelle Espeut
#13 This episode’s guest is Joelle Espeut! Joelle (she/her) currently serves as the Program Director at the Normal Anomaly Initiative in Houston, overseeing their advocacy and leadership programs.
She is deeply committed to community and political activism, including serving on the board of trustees of the Houston LGBTQ+ Political Caucus, and is the first Black trans woman nominated to that position. Joelle has worked with many companies, universities, and nonprofits. She has won several awards, including the Mahogany Project’s Rising Star Phoenix Award in 2020, the Carrying the Torch Award at 2022’s Houston Trans Pride, and the 2022 Monica Roberts Award from the Houston LGBTQ+ Political Caucus.
In 2023, Joelle graduated from the American Express Leadership Academy and was also a Victory Empowerment Fellow of the LGBTQ+ Victory Fund. Most recently, she was named the 2024 Female Identifying Grand Marshal of the Pride Houston 365 parade and festival.
You can find Joelle on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter/X.
Links to resources mentioned in this episode:
Normal Anomaly Initiative
Mahogany Project
Everyday Trans Activism is a production of Parents of Trans Youth, a social impact business providing learning, support, and community to parents and caregivers of transgender, nonbinary, and gender-diverse kids.
Host Mandy Giles (she/her) is the Texas parent of two transgender young adults and a fierce advocate for trans kids, their families, and the transgender community.
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Mandy: Hey, y'all and welcome to Everyday Trans Activism. I am your host, Mandy Giles. My pronouns are she/her, and I am the parent of two transgender young adults and the founder of Parents of Trans Youth. Today's guest is Joelle Espeut.
Joelle currently serves as the Program Director at the Normal Anomaly Initiative in Houston overseeing their advocacy and leadership programs. She is deeply committed to community and political activism, including serving on the board of trustees of the Houston LGBTQ Political Caucus, and is the first Black trans woman nominated to that position. Joelle has worked with tons of companies, universities, and nonprofits, and has won a million awards, including the Mahogany Project’s Rising Star Phoenix Award in 2020, the Carrying the Torch Award at 2022’s Houston Trans Pride, and the 2022 Monica Roberts Award from the Houston LGBTQ Political Caucus.
In 2023, she graduated from the American Express Leadership Academy and was also a Victory Empowerment Fellow of the LGBT Victory Fund. And most recently, Joelle was named the 2024 Female Identifying Grand Marshal of the Pride Houston 365 parade, which is a huge deal! Whew. That is a lot, Joelle, thank you so much for being with me today.
Joelle: Thank you. Thank you for having me. That is a mouthful. It's, it's a mouthful. I'm like, oh, that's a lot. I don't feel like I've done that much.
Mandy: Is there anything else that you want to add to your introduction?
Joelle: I think you're, I think it was perfect. I just, I do a lot, you know, I do a lot. I've done a lot as it seems. It doesn't, it doesn't seem like a lot until somebody else is saying it back to you. And it's like, Oh God, it is kind of a lot.
Mandy: Well, since you do so much, I wanted to talk with you about how you got started in everything. How did you become public and active and involved in activism and advocacy and community organizing? There must've been a start somewhere.
Joelle: I, you know, it's interesting. My background. When I think about like career professional background is actually in fashion design.
So I went to school for fashion design. I worked in the apparel manufacturing industry for over 10 years. And most of the times, I was the only Black woman especially the only trans person or trans nonbinary person or Black trans woman, I was usually the only one in senior leadership, in management or senior leadership.
And so I think that's kind of what rooted me in my advocacy and activism is that representation. And I didn't really have the language for it at the time, but it was really that visibility and that representation and, and going into spaces and increasing visibility and awareness and really normalizing transness and Black transness to many people at the time, because this was in the early 2000s. People did not have the, you know, the language, they didn't have the knowledge. And so I wasn't coming at it from an advocacy point. I was coming from it from a lived experience, trying to just normalize Black transness. And then I entered my late twenties and my early thirties and I was just like, I want more. I want more of a connection to community and people that look, live, and love like me.
And that's kind of what, you know, moved me, you know, I was living in LA and that moved me to Houston, was really that search for community, that search for being a part of something that is bigger and larger than me. And that's ultimately what kind of pulled me into advocacy.
Mandy: So I'm curious about moving to Houston for that because. Texas and Houston is not a place you that many people, I should say, would think of like, Oh, there's people who look, what did you say? Look, I can love like live and love like you. So tell me about that journey that that must have been, it was a culture shock at all?
Joelle: It was a culture shock, but not in the sense of community. Um, when I think about community, I actually loved it. It was very Black. It was very queer. It was very, very queer and unapologetic. It was, it was a culture shock in the sense of lifestyle overall. Um, Houston is very different from LA. Um, but, I really came to Houston because I saw the potential. For me, you know, a lot of people suggested Atlanta because it had a more thriving Black queer scene.
And while I've heard a lot of amazing things about Atlanta, the one thing that kind of stuck with me is everyone was like, Oh, it's so close to LA. And I was like, Well, I don't want another LA. I want something different. I want something that feels different. I want something that feels more like community.
And so a lot of people actually have had a lot of really good things to say about Houston. I had a couple of really good friends go to school in Houston, and I heard so many stories about community and the culture. And I was like, okay, you know, What do I have to lose? You know, I could go. And I think oftentimes we are taught in life that, you know, the decisions that you make in life have to be right and correct, and they can't be wrong, and you can't make a mistake.
And I think I really try to lean into, well, if this isn't, doesn't work out, then maybe I'll go somewhere else, you know, but at least I will be moving in the direction of what I want to do.
Mandy: Mmm, I like that about just finding that community and kind of making more of a difference, I guess.
In terms of, community and, and your identity, one theme that has come up several times with my various podcast guests is listening to and centering Black trans women.
And I've been, I feel so fortunate to have learned from so many people. And so I want to hear from you and your perspective on why that's important and what does it look like? And your relation to, to wanting to be centered and heard and how that tell, tell me about that.
Joelle: So I think that's an excellent question.
And I think often when we hear centering, we people conflate centering and solely focusing. And it's not solely focusing on Black trans women because people, I think when we talk about centering, a lot of people here solely focus. And so they're like, well, how can we solely focus on Black trans women?
They're such a small, you know, part of the population and it's just, you know, such a niche. And it's like, it's not solely focusing, it's centering. Why? Because if we look at a lot of the systemic issues that Black trans women face, they're issues that every other community faces. It may not be to the extent that Black trans women face, but every group faces it.
And so I'll look at domestic violence. A lot of Black trans women that are murdered are not murdered by strangers. They're murdered by intimate partners. So it's intimate partner violence. Another group that is impacted by intimate partner violence is Black cisgender women. And other groups that are impacted by intimate partner violence are just women or femme-identifying people overall.
And then groups that are impacted by intimate partner violence, but it often, oftentimes is either misinformed, or people don't label it as intimate partner violence, are LGBTQ relationships. And so when we think about it in those terms, if we centered Black trans women and really looked at and addressed intimate partner violence, everyone else would benefit.
Even thinking about things like employment, and sustainable employment. The average median income for Black trans women is $10,000. And so when we look at how employment overall is impacting everyone, no one is making enough money to survive. So if we looked at and focused on those issues and really centered, you know, employment and intimate partner violence, or even things like safety.
Like, what is, you know, Black trans women are vastly impacted when we talk about safety. If we really centered them and say, how do we keep Black trans women safe? Then that impacts all of us. Because if Black trans women are then all women are safe. Then all femme-identifying people are safe. Then all of us are safe.
As opposed to the structure that we have now, which centers white, cisgender, heterosexual, rich men. And it centers their issues. So now we're focusing on lack of gun control. We're focusing on a lot of things that don't really center the margins or the people that are most impacted by social determinants of equity, which oftentimes are Black trans women.
Mandy: Mm hmm. I have sort of a visual when you're talking about centering Black trans women and not solely focusing on that population of this sort of concentric circles. Is that the word I'm looking for? Um, and so it's almost like a ripple effect that focusing on issues that affect Black trans women disproportionately, I guess, and then working on those issues benefits everyone.
Is that what I'm hearing? Um, that is a really good way to think about a lot of these issues.
And talking about safety makes me think of something else I was going to ask you about, about being visible. And public because you are involved in all of these organizations and winning all these awards.
And I feel like every time I open up, you know, my phone or, um, you know, magazines like, ah, yeah, there's Joelle. And how, how has that impacted you or your work? Is that something you even think about?
Joelle: So it's interesting. I, I've always been visible. Um, I've always been visible. You know, even before I started my trans journey and I was just a openly queer Black youth, I was always visible.
And so I never thought about visibility as a thing. I never thought about safety as a thing and not to say that, you know, things were perfect, of course, but I just never thought about visibility and safety. Oddly enough, until I moved to Houston, until I moved to the south, and there was this hyper focus on my identity and, you know, even, and even then, I still never really thought about safety until I actually had a team member.
So this is interesting. And Mandy, I think. So I don't know if you remember when we were on a panel about, I think it was about gender-affirming care for youth and we were at a panel at the church.
Mandy: Yes.
Joelle: Okay. So that day, one of my, one of my peers and colleagues, I was telling them, they were like, Oh, where are you going?
And I was like, Oh, I'm going to be on a panel, you know, talking about gender-affirming care for youth. And they were like, You don't ever have anyone go with you? And I was like, no, but like, you should, like, it's not safe. And it did not hit me literally until they said that to me, like, it's not safe. And, I guess I don't center safety.
I just kind of center normalizing my life, my identity, um, creating more visibility, trying to create more space. And so ever since then, especially safety has always been in the back of my mind and kind of been growing and festering. And while I still do the same things. I'm still very much visible, there is still this lingering thought that wasn't there before about safety.
And I think it just speaks to the current climate in Texas, the climate in the south. I think in doing liberationist work and in creating that visibility and working to center like Black trans joy and Black trans visibility, there is a responsibility. And there's an accountability piece and there is a safety piece that comes because oftentimes, being a pioneer or being a visionary or being the one in the front, you are experiencing the brunt of the work that you are trying to do for community, or that you are helping to, to do.
And so I, you know, I don't think it's an either/or, I think it's an and/both. It's like, I still do the things, but like in the back of my mind, I always am thinking about safety, and thinking about, you know, oftentimes the intersections of my identity. I come in contact with parts of community that aren't familiar with my work.
They have no idea what I do. They just see certain parts of my life that maybe, I've been privileged enough to have that maybe other Black trans women don't have. And that's kind of what they lean into, which still plays into the safety piece. But safety is kind of a very, very complex nuanced thing that I'm still working through.
I'm literally still working through it.
Mandy: That is understandable. And how I, and I can definitely see how that may not have been on the forefront of, of your focus before you moved to Houston. And I'm thinking about normalizing trans existence, the trans experience and the connection with just your, your existence being your advocacy really. And how that, that connects with safety too. That I'm going to be thinking about this for a long time after this. Um, yeah,
Joelle: It's, it is, it's a thing. I, um, I remember I was. In New York, I was a part of a leadership cohort or academy, and I met a woman and she had a young trans son, and she was saying how her trans son ,He doesn't want to be an advocate.
He doesn't want to be an advocate. He just wants to, you know, do whatever. And so I told her, I was like, he absolutely deserves that. That is part of the reason why I do that work. So he doesn't have to feel like he has to be on the front line. Fighting the fight and fighting the war. And so when I had told someone that, I told a friend who happened to be trans that story and they got mad at me.
And they were like, why would you say that, that he shouldn't want to be an advocate? And I said, because we should not always be having a fight. We deserve the spectrum of experiences, just like everyone else. Every trans person does not have to be an advocate. That, you know, trans people deserve to work at the Gap. Or, you know, be a flight attendant. Or not work at all. Or be a sex worker. Or be, or be an advocate. And I think that too often, we, You know, our identity is advocacy, but also our identity is our identity. Like we own it. And I think that, you know, and that part of that is the safety part of it is normalizing our identity because in normalizing us and our identity, it shows like I can be anything that I want to be.
You know, and really that is one of the roots of my continued advocacy is marginalized people deserve to be whatever that they want to be, just so long as they're centering themselves in joy, um, and it brings them joy.
Mandy: Oh, that, and that's really the, I think the almost like the, the crux of the issue is, having people be whoever they want to be to whether they want to, like you said, work at the Gap, which is, I don't know if I'd say normal to be at the Gap, but mainstream, let's put it that way. Um, yeah, yeah.
To work at the Gap or, or wherever, to be able to just be themselves. And that would be the hope I would think of anybody. Now I'm thinking about the centering Black trans women of that focusing on either that population or the trans population in general, of, you know, Being whoever they want to be, advocate or not, and that should be what everybody would be, would want that and deserve that.
So that's a way of thinking about those circles and those ripples. So I know that not everybody wants or needs or should be an advocate, but for people who do want to kind of dip their toes in and get started, what advice would you have on that?
Joelle: I think advocacy looks different for everyone.
And all advocacy is needed across all fronts. But advocacy looks different for everyone. I think that there's, you know, there's advocates that are more social media influencers and their advocacy is really getting messages out and connect, you know, informing people and there are advocates that are on the front line and they picket and they go and they, you know, protest.
And there's everything in between. There are people that do administrative work in, you know, centering advocacy. There are people that are behind the scenes. I think that advocacy can look however anyone wants it to look. I think it's figuring out what is your why and what do you want to accomplish with your advocacy and then moving in that direction.
And it could be seeing if there are spaces that are doing similar or kind of work that kind of corresponds with it and then just leaning in there. I think people think that advocacy is supposed to look a certain way. I think with anything and I think the key is just to start is really to figure out what your why is, figure out what you're passionate about and what you want to accomplish.
And maybe you don't even know what you want to accomplish, but maybe, you know, that, you know what, when I started my advocacy journey, it really started with, I wanted to be more connected to the Black queer and Black trans community, Black trans community specifically. That's how I started. And I was like, I have no idea where to go.
I have no idea where to look. I'm new in a city that is huge. And so I kind of just started there. And then I stumbled across Black Trans Empowerment Week in November and the Mahogany Project and you know, and that's kind of and then I just, you know, took a chance and went out and I think that You just kind of have to start and figure out what you really figure out what your why is and then lean into that.
Mandy: I'd like the idea of taking a chance and getting out because that I think is the first step. I mean, the first step in any journey is probably the hardest, but just, finding that why and then doing something about it. And like you said, it could be making that social media post or, filing in a back room somewhere or answering the phones, or it can mean being out on the front lines of a protest or whatever it is, which I would imagine is maybe some people's view of what advocacy should look like. Like I need to be out there with the megaphone and whatever, but it can look like a whole lot of different things.
And I think that the, the finding your why is something that people might forget that they just don't, I know I need to be doing something, but focusing in and, almost kind of narrowing down your intentions I think would be really helpful for a lot of people.
Joelle: And, the key thing about finding your why is it will always recenter you because the work is not easy. If it, you know, if it's impactful, it's not easy. Um, not to say that when it is easy, it's not impactful, but oftentimes it is. It is not easy work.
And truly, truly impactful work, you are doing the work as you are doing the work. So you are doing the work, you know, yourself, for self as you are doing the work for community. And so it's, it's not easy, but when you have a solid why, it will always bring you back and it'll always recenter you.
Mandy: I guess this is, this is a question that maybe is asked a lot and maybe it's almost like cliche, but how do you take care of yourself?
And the centering is that, that sounds like that's really important to you. And it is hard work. And especially if you're doing work on yourself, that's like doubly hard work. So how, how do you regroup, recenter, and rejuvenate yourself?
Joelle: So it changes, it shifts. I do things and I try to always stay connected to things that bring me joy.
And I try to push myself to really lean into what does wellness mean for me in knowing that balance isn't always possible. Well, balance isn't always realistic just because of the nature of the work, and things that are going on. But harmony can be attained and maybe I can't have balance, but I can have harmony amongst everything that's going on and try to recenter and find myself in that.
And, things that bring me joy, you know, on in the outward sense are things like roller skating or buying comic books or thrift shopping, you know, taking a walk and being like in nature. Those are some simple, easy things that bring me joy in the outward sense.
In the inward sense, you know, I go to therapy and I'm a strong proponent of therapy. I've been in therapy for over a decade. And for me, that helps with the inner work and really centering myself inward. And I'm also always looking for tools and tips and, you know, ways to center, um, joy and recenter myself. I also, one of the things that I've really been trying to be intentional about this year is building community, and really, really leaning into what is communal love and what is communal intimacy and what is communal relationshiping,
Because in these times that we're in, it's community that's going to move us forward. It is community love and communal love and communal, communal relationshiping that is going to move us forward and ground us and uplift us. And so I've really been trying to, that's one of the newer things I've been trying to do. And it's, it's not easy, but really leaning into building relationships in community that can kind of help re-imagine and redefine communal love.
Mandy: How have you redefined communal love? Are you able to share that? I mean, I'm so interested to hear what that is.
Joelle: So I, you know, it's, I think that our society tells us that we can only have love and intimacy one way, and it is very cishet, patriarchal, you know, very male, female, one partner, that is romance, that is relationship, that is intimacy. And I think also that a lot of LGBT people subscribe to that, and not to say that there's anything wrong with that, but I think oftentimes all that does is reinforce a lot of the things that we are trying to dismantle.
And so what I really have been trying to lean into is, What if I de-center that cishet patriarchal definition of love and intimacy and romance? And like, what if I re-center communal love and communal intimacy? Because I know that for so many of us, we may not ever get that cishet patriarchal form of love or form of intimacy that in society says that if you don't get that, you're a failure. Myself included, you know?
And so I said, well, what if I don't get that? Then, you know, then what do I do? And like, how do I experience love? How do I experience intimacy? And so I've really been trying to be intentional about, so it starts with me and making sure that I'm working on myself and doing the inner work, and making sure that I am also showing up in relationships and relationshipping being in friendships and forms of intimacy as well as I can be. And I know well is subjective. And also thinking about reimagining, like, what is communal love and what is communal intimacy? And one example is for Valentine's Day, um, didn't have a Valentine, wasn't even thinking about it. I was just, you know, very single, working, you know, and one of my friends, one of my really good friends, she said, Hey.
Do you want to go to a Valentine's Day card making workshop? And it's just going to be a group of people and we're going to be listening to music. And I was like, yeah, I think I do. And then we had this discussion about what love was. And it was an open convo. It was, and it was a group that was mixed.
It was cis. It was queer. It was trans. It was people that were in relationships, people that weren't. It was younger. And. For me, that was an example of reimagining what communal love could be. And it's like, not being defined by, I don't have this white cishet model of what partnership and love and relationship is.
I'm redefining it and reimagining it. And I think it's very important for Black trans, or just trans in general, people. Because we are re-imagining what gender is. We are re-imagining what identity is and presentation. Why can't we re-imagine what relationshipping is or what intimacy is or what love is?
Because if we are just leaning into what is already the tried and true, we're just recreating the same wheel.
Mandy: That is beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Oh, I'm thinking about, uh, Re-imagining things and re-imagining, gosh, re-imagining systems and love and relationships that that would be a sense of empowerment, uh, to think like, wow, I don't have to do X, Y, Z the way, you know, society is telling me that I should, or the white patriarchy says I should.
Joelle: And I think there's nothing, there's also nothing wrong with wanting and desiring partnership in that way. And I think people feel like it has to be either/or it could be and/both. You can still want and desire, or you can even still have that level or that type of partnership or relationship or marriage or whatever.
But what is it like to also like to center communal love within that and not just center, okay, I have to have that partner and be married and have this type of life for it to be, you know, deemed acceptable. And if you want that, that's okay too. And I think that it just, reimagining doesn't mean we have to throw out everything because also maybe that does work for some people.
But we should create space and community that is just love, that is just joy and liberation.
Mandy: It's kind of whatever is filling, whatever fills you. And, I'm liking the, the vision of making space for all of those different kinds of relationships and intimacy and love that is very, very hopeful. And, oh, it just makes me feel good thinking about all those different kinds of love, and I'll have to think about that and, and see where I can do that in my communities as well.
Okay. Speaking of making space. Where do you see allies in being helpful, uh, or not so helpful in, trans liberation, trans equality, trans rights? Cause I know that sometimes that's a, a hard line to walk for some people, for some allies and thinking, where should I be? Where shouldn't I be? When can I talk? When should I be quiet? And so I'm wondering about your, your thoughts on that.
Joelle: So I'm probably going to be in the minority. I'm probably gonna have a very different, different thought about it than a lot of people. I believe that allyship and being an accomplice and accomplish it should be bidirectional.
I think that we all should benefit. I think that oftentimes only the trans person or only the marginalized, more marginalized person benefits from allyship. Like, it's very one-way transactional, which there is nothing wrong with that. But I believe that everyone should be able to benefit. I believe that allies should be able to benefit from allyship.
Now maybe the benefit, maybe it takes a little bit longer to figure out, okay, what is the benefit? What are everyone's benefits? Everyone should be able to benefit. And I say that because the reality is, and I know that allies feel this way, and usually when I'm in a session, and I bring this up, people nod, but they're scared to nod.
But I say, allyship doesn't feel good, does it? It does not feel good because you're always on pins and needles. Like, Oh my God, I can't say this. I could get canceled. They could come after me. I don't know. Am I using, you know, it doesn't feel good. And I think the first space is creating space and community for grace.
And allyship is not perfection. Perfection is just another symptom of white patriarchy. Allyship is not perfection. Allies have to get it wrong to grow. That's the hard part, and that's the uncomfortable part. Allies have to get it wrong to grow. Just like me as a Black trans woman needs to feel safe with my ally, my ally needs to feel safe with me.
They need to feel safe that, you know what, if I make a mistake that is not intentional, because sometimes you know mistakes are hurtful and they're intentional, but if I make a mistake that's not intentional. I get the grace and the space to learn through that. And I think that that is where a lot of allyship gets stuck.
And so, and it works both ways. you know, as a Black trans woman, I don't want my ally, don't say, Oh, I want to give up all of my privileges. No, no, no, no, no, no, no! You keep your privilege! Absolutely! Because then you’re not an ally, You're just another, you know. How do you leverage your privilege to create more space?
How do you leverage your privilege to help to kind of center or move Black trans women towards the margin? And, you know, and how do we make that allyship bi-directional? Um, and so I think that that is where the work of allyship is. And it's also, You know, creating the space of allyship is a, it's a journey.
It's not a destination, and it changes and it shifts and you know, any circumstance or law or news story can shift the landscape of allyship. And so it's everyone's responsibility to lean into that and understand that it's not a one-size-fits-all model.
And the allies really truly, you know, it's a couple of things. They deserve the space and grace to fail forward and get it wrong. And you know, work through allyship. Cause there's a lot of stuff that it's hard. Like if, you know, and some of it, I didn't even know until I was actually engaged in allies, for instance, pronouns, I didn't realize that pronouns were such a difficult thing until I engaged with people, until I engaged with like cishet people who were really trying, who they were really trying, but it was just so challenging, But to hear them actually work through it and to have the space to kind of make mistakes and ask questions and then to follow up with them and to hear them say, I put pronouns in my signature to hear like older white cishet women from not from Houston, but from the outskirts say, I added pronouns in my signature, and I asked my clients, what are their pronouns? Or to hear, cishet, you know, HPD officers talk about how they engage with the trans community and how they take in these beginning steps. That's allyship. We want it to change overnight, and it's, it's not possible.
You know, there can be change. There can be incremental change. There can be change that is, that is tangible, but it's, it's a collective effort, and I think too often times, allyship is seen as transactional one way, and then there is no space and grace. And it's like, you got to get it right. And so for me, I, I found success and I'll just say me personally, I found success in creating the space.
And like setting, you know, level setting and trying to create a brave or courageous because I can't guarantee that it's going to be safe. But creating a brave or courageous space to say, okay, you know, we're here. We're allies. Let's, let's, let's start. We got to start somewhere. And letting them share and listen and then like having and meeting them where they are and knowing that some people may not get it.
Some people it may take them a while, but that's the work.
Mandy: I think you are right about, I know you're right, about allies being hesitant or scared to, like we were saying before, to take that chance and to jump in because they're worried about offending. Even, I've even talked to parents with their own kids that they don't, like say the pronouns are so difficult or maybe they're not getting a lot of space and grace from their kid about using correct pronouns. And so they don't use any pronouns at all or they don't use a name or pronoun cause they're afraid to get something wrong. They're afraid that they're going to offend their kid or, or whoever. And that's not helpful.
Because then that person's not growing. And I've said like your kid’s noticing you're not using their name or their pronouns. Um, so if, gosh, if more allies knew that it's okay, and you have to, I think you said fail forward that you have to fail to grow.
Joelle: And every trans person doesn't feel that way. I will say that every trans person, yeah,
Mandy: I do.
Joelle: And it's rightfully so, you know, it's understandable. You know, the trans person does have that right. But I think there isn't, it has to be, it has to work both ways. I met a parent when I was going out to vote, um, who stopped me. And I was introduced to her older white cishet woman. I was like, Oh my God, why? Just like introducing me to her. But she was telling me, she was like, I have a nonbinary child and I'm struggling with pronouns and I'm struggling with, with them being nonbinary and I don't, I don't have the space to just say that. I don't have the space to openly say that.
And they were, I think that they were expecting me to fight them. Like, and I was like, Oh, that's okay. And it's understandable. And then I was like, can I give you a hug? Because I know that's hard. And I gave her a hug and she was like, I just always feel like I'm getting it wrong. And, and I was like, and you're going to get it wrong. And that's okay. That is okay. I know that your child may not feel that way, but that is okay.
And I think that, you know, while every trans person may not feel that way and they have the right to feel that way. I like to lean into and lead with that because we're going to get it wrong. I get it wrong sometimes as an ally and I, you know, I need to be educated and, you know, and no one's perfect. And I think that allyship is not perfection.
That's that, that is the very big mistake that we all make.
Mandy: yeah, and I think you're, that I have come in contact with trans people who you said feel differently, um, and yes, that is completely understandable, for someone to say, No, you, that is not okay for you to, to mess up or work harder or whatever it is. So I, I appreciate that too, that they're, like I said, everybody should be able to, to feel the way they want to feel, and that's their identity, and that, that is fine.
And I think maybe with maybe the takeaway of the, the biggest one is allyship is not perfection, and you, you've got to just take that chance and jump in, and, and you're going to get it wrong and regardless of whatever the reaction is, you're going to get it wrong and just keep on moving forward, and I think that, that's good advice for anyone, I think.
So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. Where can people find you? Where do you want them to go? Are you promoting anything right now?
Joelle: Um, so people can, of course, find me on social media. on Facebook, I think it's my first and middle name, Joelle Bayaa-Uzuri. Instagram and Twitter is funny. It's your man first choice because I'm very unserious. Um, but I really want to actually uplift, you know, a lot of the work that I do is with the Normal Anomaly Initiative. We are a Black queer-led nonprofit, that centers Black queer and trans people. We're located in Houston, Texas. And you know, I think that if you are interested in like the work that, you know, work of centering Black trans joy or Black queer joy, or really the margin to center and centering Black trans women and anyone at the margins, the Normal Anomaly is a really good place to start.
If you're like, I want to know more or I want to, you know, get engaged. Because we do some really amazing work at the Normal Anomaly and it really, you know, touches on a lot of the things that we talked about. Centering Black transness, centering Black, Black queer and trans joy, and allyship and building bi-directional allyship.
Mandy: Yeah, there's gosh, there's something going on all the time with Normal Anomaly, I'm like, how do y'all do it? Do you work 24/7? Um, and maybe the answer is yes on that. But, y'all are really doing some absolutely incredible work and creative work too. I just see stuff all the time, which is just great.
So, so listener, if you want to show gratitude for Joelle and her work and all the wonderful things that she does, then you can give a donation to the Normal Anomaly and put it in Joelle's honor because they are doing fantastic work. So thank you again, Joelle. And I know I'll see you soon.
Joelle: Yes, definitely.
Mandy: Bye.