Ep. 12 - Parenting trans kids with JOY with Ben Greene
#12 This episode’s guest is Ben Greene! Ben (he/him) is a trans man, transgender advocate, and educator who has spoken internationally on topics surrounding transgender inclusion.
After coming out at 15 in small-town Connecticut and giving a popular TEDx talk at Brandeis University, Ben has devoted his career to spreading empathy, education, and storytelling around the trans experience. He is a fierce advocate for transgender youth, regularly speaking in their defense at the Missouri State Capitol. When he's not speaking during working hours, he's delivering free presentations to parent support groups around the country and spending hours one-on-one with families of newly out transgender loved ones. Ben is the author of the newly released book My Child is Trans, Now What?: A Joy-Centered Approach to Support (affiliate link).
You can find Ben on his website https://www.bgtranstalks.com/ or Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn.
Links to resources mentioned in this episode:
My Child is Trans, Now What?: A Joy-Centered Approach to Support by Ben Greene (affiliate link)
”Where Are You Sitting?” TEDx Brandeis University talk by Ben Greene
Ten Counterproductive Behaviors of Social Justice Educators by Cody Charles
Everyday Trans Activism is a production of Parents of Trans Youth, a social impact business providing learning, support, and community to parents and caregivers of transgender, nonbinary, and gender-diverse kids.
Host Mandy Giles (she/her) is the Texas parent of two transgender young adults and a fierce advocate for trans kids, their families, and the transgender community.
* Subscribe to the podcast THIS MINUTE to never miss an episode (the horror!)
* Purchase smart and snazzy podcast merch
* Join the Parents of Trans Youth email list for tasteful and tantalizing tidbits sent to your inbox
* Get social with us on Instagram or Facebook
Thanks for listening!
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Mandy Giles: Hey, y'all, and welcome to Everyday Trans Activism. I'm your host, Mandy Giles. My pronouns are she/her, and I am the parent of two transgender young adults and the founder of parents of trans youth. Today's guest is Ben Greene. Ben is a trans man, transgender advocate, and educator who has spoken internationally on topics surrounding transgender inclusion.
After coming out at 15 in small-town Connecticut and giving a popular TEDx talk at Brandeis University, Ben has devoted his career to spreading empathy, education, and storytelling around the trans experience. He is a fierce advocate for transgender youth, regularly speaking in their defense at the Missouri State Capitol. And when he's not speaking during working hours, he's delivering free presentations to parent support groups around the country and spending hours one-on-one with families of newly out transgender loved ones. And he is the author of the newly released book My Child is Trans: Now What? A Joy-Centered Approach to Support.
Ben, thank you so much for talking with me today.
Ben Greene: Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.
Mandy Giles: Oh, fantastic. Okay. So I want to start by asking you how you got to where you are today. How did you get from that 15-year-old coming out in a small town to an author and a speaker and an advocate at the State Capitol? Tell me about your journey.
Ben Greene: Yeah, it's definitely been, you know, a winding road. I think at first it was very much kind of, honestly, I say it was against my will. I didn't really have a choice. I came out and because I was one of the first people to come out in my town, it was, it was very, Okay, if I want to get support, I have to build it. I want inclusive education in our health classes. Great, I'm teaching the classes. I want our guidance staff to be equipped to support trans students. Great, I'm training the guidance staff. I'm leading the student group. I'm putting together our policies. I am just kind of becoming all the different adults that I needed to show up for me.
I had to become those things and I had to be those for countless other trans youth in my town and in my area in Connecticut, and so I, I found that I was quite good at, you know, answering questions, supporting people through coming out, talking to people's parents, coming up with inclusive policies and getting buy-in for them. I found that I was good at it, not that I wanted to be good at it, but that I was.
Uh, and originally, actually, I went to college and I said, I don't think I'm gonna tell anybody that I'm trans anymore. Uh, you know, for a long time, people treated me like a trans person who happens to be Ben, and I wanna be Ben who happens to be a trans person. And I was really lucky that people at my college had already met trans people, already knew how to be an ally, and already cared about showing up with support. And so, I wasn't anything new, like, to put it in kind words, I wasn't special to them, you know? I was just like, oh yeah, Ben's a trans guy, my brother's trans, my neighbor's trans, whatever. And it was normal, and that was amazing, and so I felt safer to, you know, lean into learning more about what my identity was.
And then I had an opportunity to give a TEDx talk that I thought would kind of close out all of my advocacy work and allow me to go into my career of elementary education. And instead I gave this TEDx talk about how to show up as an ally. It was called “Where Are You Sitting?” and it totally blew up online, and all these companies found it and said, wow, this was so cool. Would you, you know, do you do this professionally? And I said, well, Sure. And so I started, yeah, they said, we'll give you a hundred dollars. And I was like, wow, a hundred dollars! That's like three months of ramen for a college kid. I was thrilled. And so I'm taking the train down to New York City, uh, from Boston to go and give these presentations.
And after the second or third one, I'm with my dad. And I said, you know, I think I have an opportunity to do a whole lot of good here. And I know that I'm on a set career path. I'm guaranteed career as a teacher. And I think I have an opportunity to make a pretty major difference for my community. And I, I owe it to myself and to my community to see what this can be. And so after some, you know, going back and forth for a little while, I convinced my parents to support me in changing my major, graduating as quickly as I could. And going full-time into advocacy work.
And then my wife said, Hey, I got into medical school. Uh, it's in St. Louis, Missouri. And I said, Okay, very interesting. You know, I had not spent any time in the Midwest. I had no idea what to expect. Honestly, I was prepared to go back into the closet from everything I'd heard. I was like, yeah, I'm going into this backwards place. And instead I found within the city itself was an incredibly vibrant trans and queer community. So many wonderful people. And even across the state, the amount of advocates and activists I have found who have trained me about what it actually means to fight, to advocate, to, you know, persist, to have resilience. I had a very like kind of coastal mindset for a long time of like, people are getting what they voted for. And like, it was really hard to, you know, get me to show up for anything. I wasn't a particularly big political advocate in Boston. Cause I didn't feel like I needed to be, but in Missouri, now I don't take anything that I have for granted.
If I want it, I have to claw it out of the ground with my own fingernails. And so I've learned how to do that. And I am so grateful to the incredible advocates here who have really given me a lot of perspective about what it means to truly advocate for a community. So that's my kind of winding path. I know that was a very long.
Mandy Giles: No, that's great. I actually just talked to someone the other day, doing good work in Missouri and, there's some, yeah, incredible advocates and, and people really, fighting for everything that they have. And I can definitely relate with clawing for those, for every right, every bit of access for transgender kids and folks, being from Texas definitely, can relate to that.
Ben Greene: You know what's up.
Mandy Giles: Yes, yes, definitely. I actually have a question about part of your story, you said as a teenager, you had to be the adults that you didn't really have or that you needed. And I know that in, in all of my learnings and the transgender adults I've talked to and different subject matter experts and all that kind of good stuff is to not treat your trans kids like Google and to not put the burden of educating everybody on to your kid or onto the transgender community.
And so I wonder how that was for you. If you're saying you're basically teaching the classes and doing the work that it would have been maybe better for, not better, uh, it would've been helpful to have adults do it for you, and to think of that and to say, Oh, we need to have more inclusive health classes and stuff like that. How, how was that for you?
Ben Greene: Yeah, you know, it was the people around me were very kind when I came out largely, which I'm really grateful for. And it was, they were very nice, but that didn't often translate to action. So people said, yeah, we support you. This is great. We're going to be really nice. Uh, and that was lovely. But it meant that there wasn't anybody saying, okay, what policies do we need in place?
Are there people who aren't using the right pronouns and how can we intervene there? It was really challenging to feel like I had to build those support systems as I was realizing that I needed them rather than having someone came in and say, Hey, you know, this actually has happened before we have resources that we can learn from. I just didn't know those were out there.
Uh, and I think there is a tendency for someone to say, all right, well, you know, I want to learn. I want to understand. So let me go to this, you know, very nearby resource, but I didn't become an expert when I came out. I became an expert because I made this my career.
This is my field of study. This is my profession. I didn't write the book just because I came out and that makes me qualified. I wrote a book for supporting parents of trans kids because I've spent hundreds of hours supporting parents of trans kids, uh, and that is expertise.
And so I encourage people to think about, you know, is somebody the right resource for a question? Why do I think they're going to have that information? And it doesn't mean to, like, never talk to your kid about things you're curious about, but you could say, hey, you know, is there a resource that you really like where I could go and do some more learning? Is there a TV character that makes you feel really seen? Is there anywhere you might recommend that I look that especially if they have an identity that might be a little more unfamiliar to you. There are lots of different definitions floating around.
So to say, What resources helped you learn? I want to go to those as well. That can be such a meaningful kind of show of support to say, I'm taking my learning into my own hands. I'm not only learning when you think it's relevant for me to pick up a piece of information. I know I'm going to need to be educated. So I'm going to proactively learn about, you know, what kind of support you need and what your health care looks like and, you know, things that might come up in a health class.
Like, I didn't know to teach about safe binding because no one had taught me about safe binding. And so I did some pretty serious damage to my ribs because I only knew to teach about the things I already knew about. I didn't know, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know.
Mandy Giles: So you were building the plane as you were flying it, it sounds like, and yeah, so that's a lot of burden. I think that's a really good point of going to the right resource at the right time. And sometimes your kid is that resource and sometimes they're not. And I'd like the idea too of asking them what resources they have used or what, what they would recommend.
And so it's still involving your child in the process and frankly, like you said, showing your kid that you are doing the work because that is a huge part of what parents need to do is to do that learning and doing that education. Um, cause so many of us, are a little clueless when our kids come out.
And so we need to really kind of play catch up to, for even just the vocabulary, like you said, so that, that is a really good point. I wanted to talk about your book, and I know that you have a focus on joy in parenting trans kids.
Ben Greene: Yeah.
Mandy Giles: And I love that because I like that too. I talk to parents all the time about moving through those complicated emotions, maybe a little bit of grief, and helping them figure out what exactly that grief might actually be and getting to the joy and getting to the celebration. And there's joy exercises all through the book. Tell me why that's so important to you.
Ben Greene: Yeah. You know, I spent so much of the beginning of my transition focused on pain. My own pain, other people's painful reactions to me coming out, the couple of trans characters that were on TV at the time I was coming out was, you know, your options were victim or villain.
There weren't just, you know, trans cashiers, trans love interests, God forbid, trans people who had a happy ending and made it all the way to the end of the show, like, we just weren't, you know, normal people living our lives, and certainly not on the news or in my real life or in my community as well. Um, and when I thought about my medical transition, it was similarly about avoiding misery.
I think a lot now about the ways that we talk to parents of trans kids. Our conversation around support begins and ends at suicide statistics. It's about suicide. It's about depression. It's about anxiety. So much of the motivation for parents to be supportive is, I would never want my kid to feel like I don't love them. I want them to feel supported. I want to help them have less dysphoria.
And that's great. But that also means that when we talk about things like concerns about regret, when parents are hesitant to support their kid, doing things that might be more permanent, or going through a medical transition, for example, There's a lot of fear and that fear is much bigger when we don't know what we stand to gain. So things like medical school has a huge regret rate. Um, many people regret their college majors. Knee replacement surgery has something like a 40 percent regret rate. So many things in life have, as it turns out, quite high regret rates, but we understand what we stand to gain. if that gamble works out in our favor. When we talk only about what we want to avoid with the trans community, it makes it really hard to stand up to those risks and to those detractors because we don't really understand what we're fighting for. We view this community as a tragedy, as being depressed and oppressed, and just don't quite understand why our kid might actually want to transition outside of this exact moment.
We don't really think about the future of imagining our kids as trans adults happy because most people have never seen that before. And so it's crucial in my book to talk often about, Hey, just a reminder. Like if you're having trouble remembering your kid's pronouns, get a spray bottle. Uh, that'll make it a fun, easy way to answer it.
That honors that they're still a kid. It gets everybody smiling and laughing. This journey does not have to be stoic and serious and heavy. There are going to be heavy moments, but they don't all have to be painful. Trans lives are not painful. Painful. And there are so many millions of transgender adults who are married. I got married six months ago. I'm having a great time with that.
Mandy Giles: Oh, congratulations.
Ben Greene: Thank you! I'm loving it. I've become what they call a wife guy instantly. I'm obsessed with my wife. And so there are trans people who are out there having families, having grandkids and careers and going to law school and med school. And there are so many things that we stand to gain with our authenticity.
And so it's crucial to me to be kind of constantly hammering that home throughout the book of like, Hey, there are going to be moments that are heavy, but this can and should be a joyful journey to a joyful destination. That's what we're fighting for. That's what we stand to gain. Yeah. Yeah.
Mandy Giles: Oh, I liked flipping the focus on its head, because you're right that so many conversations start out with the suicide statistics, and now I'm going to have to rethink some of the presentations that I do. And, and I think that that is, I do use that tactic sometimes when talking with people who want to argue with me and say, well, like the regret stuff and that, well, what, what happens?
And so you have to think. What happens if they do get it and, and whatever, medical care, or what happens if they do socially transition? That's the, that's what, like you said, the, what there is to gain, it's that joy and that celebration. And so let's talk about that rather than the downer part of, of what might happen if they don't get da, da, da, da, da, or if they don't transition.
And so I think that is really important for parents to keep in mind. And uh, so the spray bottle, okay, so who gets the spray bottle? Is it the kid? And then they spray whenever they're misgendered?
Ben Greene: Yeah. I think the kid gets it.
Mandy Giles: All right.
Ben Greene: You can also, if you are less waterproof or, you know, don't want that have really expensive hairstylist, what have you, uh, you could do a misgendering jar instead that the kid gets the money, whatever goes into the jar.
Mandy Giles: Okay.
Ben Greene: It does a couple of things, right? One of the hardest things about getting misgendered frequently is feeling like you have to come up with a new way every time to bring up, hey, I know we talked about this one second ago.
Those aren't my pronouns. Nothing has changed between now and five minutes ago. It can feel exhausting to decide, is it worth it to say something? Versus, like, squirt bottle, squirt bottle. It's also way more effective because people do not like to be sprayed with water. It's very, uh, oh, I think Pavlovian is the word, maybe classically conditioning.
Mandy Giles: I've heard that tactic when, when training, uh, canine, uh, beings as well, but Hey, if it works for people, definitely. I actually heard, I'm not sure that this was a joke or not, but at Thanksgiving, somebody brought out an air horn. And, uh, I think that maybe is an urban legend, but I like that idea because I bet that misgendering stopped really quickly with an air horn in your dining room for sure.
Ben Greene: Our solutions can be fun and funny. They don't have to be a serious conversation with a big call-out. It can make you laugh and still be effective.
Mandy Giles: That's just such a great way of bringing the joy back into it. And even if a parent is feeling this roller coaster of emotions of their, their worldview, their paradigm, not just shifting, if they're new to gender diversity, even that small part of humor or joy can help them, I think, a long way. So I'm so glad that you focus on that.
Something else that you talk about, I think it's in chapter two about showing subtle support for your trans kid. And I like the idea of passing the litmus test of being a safe ally. And using every tool in your toolbox to show your kid that you will support them if and when they come out to you as trans or LGBTQ or whatever.
And people often ask me how to make your home a safe and affirming place for sure after a child comes out. But also, like, how do you build that environment so that your child does feel safe and that they know that it's a safe space to come out? And this may be a different question, but bringing up even the topic of gender diversity without being weird and awkward about it, although being a parent of a teen for sure you're always weird and awkward. Uh, but I, I want to hear more about that, about that litmus test and showing your child support kind of almost pre-support.
Ben Greene: Yeah, that is such a great question, and this is an extremely important note for anybody who's thinking about whether it's your trans co-workers, your trans kids, like any trans people that you meet around you, especially as things continue to get more and more radical. Transgender people, and in particular your trans kid, can't afford to guess wrong. Every person that we're talking to, I have a mental calculus in my room at all times of every person in my proximity of how they're reacting to what I'm saying of whether or not they're a safe person. When I go do a speech in person, I'm watching every person in that room, every person who walks by in the hall, figuring out who are my safe people, who's a red flag, who's kind of snickering when I share things about my personal story.
I'm always doing mental math of who around me is safe to come out to, to safe to know my identity, uh, and a lot of times it comes down to guesswork because people aren't sending any signals either way and we can't afford to guess wrong, especially for trans kid when it comes to down to, you know, the massive overrepresentation of LGBTQ youth in the homeless youth population, the number of people who have been kicked out or sent to conversion camps or just yeah, you know, been put in really unsafe situations. Once you come out, you can't really take that back. And so we want to come up with ways that we can be not just active, but proactive about our support so that we can take the guesswork out of it. So that our kids and all the people that we know can look at us and say, I know that that person would be my ally.
So a couple of things that you can do to really show those signs of support. Number one is to be consistent with respectful language as frequently as you can. So that means that we're not suggesting that we watch “White Chicks.” It means that we're not making jokes about Caitlyn Jenner.
You know, Caitlyn Jenner was actually like, I've learned now that people made fun of her because they didn't like her. Not a great person. As a human being, I have a lot of issues with Caitlyn Jenner. She's a woman though, but the way that a lot of people chose to show their disrespect for her as a human was to disrespect her as a woman. When I have no other evidence around me, all I have is people making fun of her gender identity. How am I supposed to assume that it's about anything else? How am I supposed to guess? Well, surely it'd be different for me. Uh, they're all wearing Caitlyn Jenner Halloween costumes. And so I kind of assumed that people did not like the trans community.
And so being really consistent, even if you don't like an individual making sure, and that goes for a lot of things, by the way, people love to make fun of, uh, another big example here is like body size. If there is a, a celebrity that you don't particularly like, talking about, you know, the size of their genitals or calling them fat, or like just really critiquing someone's body, they're not going to hear that. But the people in your life who have bodies that might look like that are absolutely going to hear that. So it's really important that we're consistent about our respect for, you know, different communities as frequently as we can be and consistent in shutting down comments.
I, the biggest piece of evidence that I typically get is who laughs at a joke. Somebody makes a transphobic joke. I am immediately scanning the room who looks a little bit uncomfortable. Who's laughing along, who's adding on to the joke and who's going to say something because that's how I really make a note of like, Oh yeah, that person is in my corner, so I really make a note of who is just, who is deciding to show up, who's sharing their pronouns, all the different things someone might do to show up as an ally.
So finding those ways to be consistent, as well as, you know, going into the latter part of your question, which is, how can we celebrate gender diversity in the home? Kids don't know that it's not normal. They only learn that it's not normal from you. All the rules about the world, they're learning and they're not particularly attached to them. Right? I think driving is a great example. If I told, you know, my 55-year-old dad to drive on the left side of the road, he would probably be like, okay, this is going to take some practice. Some remembering, like, I'm going to have trouble with this. If I told a 16-year-old to drive on the left side of the road, there's a 50/50 shot they're already doing that because they don't really remember they're supposed to be on the right.
Mandy Giles: That's true.
Ben Greene: Yeah, they're not great drivers, but it's because they're not, they haven't had practice. They're learning the rules. Gender is the same way. Kids don't know that gender diversity is atypical or, you know, a bad thing, which it's not a bad thing, but a lot of kids by default will learn that message unless you teach them otherwise, because even if you're not teaching it, everything is teaching them at all times.
Everything is teaching us as adults at all times, TV shows. Commercials about what it means to be a good man or a good woman. Everything is a lesson for us at all times and especially for kids. So making sure that we're being really proactive about treating it just like it's normal. So, you know, my, my cousin has a stuffed monkey who uses they/them pronouns. And she decided that all on her own. My aunt wasn't like, could we call this monkey They? My cousin was like, yeah, some people use he or she, or they, this is my monkey and they're they.
Mandy Giles: Oh, I love that.
Ben Greene: That’s just normal to her. And she started that when she was younger. Like, I think she was seven when she gave that monkey they/them pronouns.
Mandy Giles: Wow. That is aware. Those are some great bits of advice and I especially like the being inclusive, and using the language and oh gosh. Cause kids are just such sponges and they will definitely soak up the good and the bad. So like you say, if you're talking about somebody like, Oh, ha ha. Look at that man in a dress or whatever, then they will get that. Cause I know that's the kind of thing I got in my house growing up, and I didn't know any different either. And same thing with different movies and whatever that were not, positive representations at all. And being an almost 55-year-old person having to relearn and drive on the right side of the road.
Then yeah that with kids I've noticed it's just so much easier and for them to just yeah, and people ask me that too like oh, you know, my my brother's kids, they're younger. How do I explain about my kid to them or maybe maybe the the brother is, you know, is worried about what's going to happen to his little children. I'm like, you know, the kids are going to get it. You just say, Oh, you know, so and so goes by the name, whatever now Mars and they're like, okay, all right, that's fine. And then they’re like, let's go get a snack. And it's just so much easier. Maybe making your home a safe and inclusive place is not quite as hard as people would think for, for children, especially.
So something else that I know you address in your book. And again, people ask me about all the time is how to deal with extended family or friends that don't understand gender diversity or don't agree in quotes with gender ideology, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is.
And I know that, that you, you talk about different kinds of, is it misunderstanding? Is it malicious? And so how do you even get around that? Like if grandma and grandpa watch Fox News all day, how do you tell them that your kid is transgender? How do you navigate that?
Ben Greene: Yeah, it's a great question. And one of the things that I really try to ground myself in is a note from an article that I really like that's called the I think it's called the 10 Mistakes of Social Justice Educators. And one of the mistakes in that article, it's a great article. One of the mistakes is, don't forget to acknowledge the courage it takes for someone to abandon their entire worldview. We're not just asking them to change a little bit of their language, and it can be really easy, especially for a kid coming out to say, I wish you could be supportive right away. I wish you could just get it. And even as people who have chosen to make that change and do get it, we forget that it's not actually easy for everyone.
I mean, especially when we're talking about grandparents, people who have spent 60, 70, 80 years learning that your gender identity is specifically, you know, the your sex assigned at birth determines everything. Everything about how you get to interact with the world, how you get to dress, how, you know, what rights you have as a person, so much of your life is dictated by that.
And then to have an eight-year-old opt out because they'd rather not? That's like, oh my gosh! That takes courage for somebody to decide. I want to go into this totally new world where I'm going to make mistakes rather than just kind of waiting out my days, wishing that life was the same as it had been when I was growing up. I'm going to let go everything that I have learned to embrace a whole new philosophy to support this kid that takes courage and that takes time and education and patience. And while there has been a dramatic rise in visibility, it has not been paired with a rise in education. And so, it's so important.
A lot of people are like, yeah, I already know how they're going to respond. You might, but you might also not. And as much as it's going to be tempting to think that the first reaction indicates the journey, very rarely does an initial unsupportive response mean there is no opportunity for growth.
Sometimes it will, I'm not going to say that every family member will eventually become loving and affirming and use the right pronouns, but leave room for people to surprise you. Because it is always possible. So now there are two different approaches that we take once we have that coming out conversation.
And I would recommend if you don't think they're going to respond well, don't bring your kid because while you might be able to process that they're changing on that journey, they're always going to wonder, do they still feel that way? That's going to wound them in a way that they may not recover from.
I love my family. They are all tremendous advocates for me now. But there are certain things that people said early in the journey that will never leave me. And my parents, you know, shielded me from a lot of those earlier conversations, but there were a lot of like little things that I don't think I'll ever truly forget because I was a kid and all I needed was for somebody to say that they loved me.
And so make sure you talk to your kid first. Don't, you know, come out for them without their explicit permission for each individual. But then go to the individual and say, all right, you know, our kid is identifying as transgender. I know you might've heard a lot about this, So I want to start by answering the questions that you have. What are you curious about? What are you worried about? Maybe talk through some language, maybe invite them to come with you to a PFLAG meeting, find ways to help them learn and give them as much space as you can to ask their questions.
I could have a lineup of 10 people who all say, you know, I don't want to share my pronouns and it could, they could say it in the exact same way and the exact same tone. And then if I asked them why not, each person could give me a totally different answer. Some people could be rooted in shame, or embarrassment, or in I don't understand, or in malice, or misinformation, or wanting more of a scientific basis.
Whatever it is, when we think about allyship, even if it might feel like we know why someone is saying what they're saying, if I'm throwing a party at my house, that's the allyship party, and my friend says, Hey, I'm lost. And I say, turn left. What's that going to do? Where are they going to go now? I got to say, all right, are there any landmarks around you? Where are you lost? I have to go to you to get you to where I want you to be.
And so as tempting as it might be to launch into, well, you're being transphobic and here are these suicide statistics, and it can be really tempting to feel like we've already had the whole conversation to jump into the scripted best practice responses for someone saying, well, I don't, I just don't believe in it. That doesn't align with my beliefs can feel so tempting for both of us to hit play on a fight that is a foregone conclusion.
So I ask questions instead. I give answers people are not expecting of like, well, I'm just so, you know, I'm just so worried about them. What if they get bullied at school? Yeah. Let's talk about how we can change the school instead of talking about how we can change the kid or if they have questions about medical transition. You know, I don't want this 8-year-old to have surgery. Yeah. As it turns out, that's a really popular piece of misinformation. I'm curious about where you heard that. This is actually, you know, not something that really happens.
Finding ways to ask questions like, Help me understand the worst case scenario here. That's a really revealing question to ask somebody, because then it really gets to the root of, you know, is it well, if that, if those characteristics make that kid trans, then that means that I should have transitioned 40 years ago. And obviously that's not the case that comes up more than you'd think.
Mandy Giles: I bet, I bet.
Ben Greene: I’m not binary, but that's not right. So asking what's the worst case scenario helped me understand, you know, what about this is challenging as much as we can, as difficult as it might be having that nonjudgmental space, because it's really hard to be a day one ally, the websites that are out there, there's no one space that's like, here are all the definitions. I could find a million websites that all have slightly different definitions. That's really overwhelming.
So being that resource, being that lack of judgment, and at the end of the day, recognizing that if somebody isn't prepared to meet your kid with love, then that's not family. And even if you say, well, family sticks together, what your kid is seeing in that moment is that you have not picked them. If there's somebody in my family, who's an unsafe person, a truly unaffirming, unkind, malicious, you know, spouting QAnon, what have you at me. I'm doing as much as I can to put distance between myself and that person.
I'm counting down the days until I move out of that city. I'm counting down the days until I leave college. And what you're deciding is what side of that distance you want to be on. Uh, and so you can say, hey, you know, if you're not interested, it's been years now. If you're not interested in using the right pronouns, you don't have to come. You can find another Thanksgiving to go to, because that invitation is permission for a lot of people to say, well, Family's family. You have to invite me even if you don't agree with me. And that's true unless you're going to show up with malice towards my kid. That's not acceptable anymore. And that's okay.
Mandy Giles: And I think that's a hard, hard reality for a lot of people to, to swallow. But I like the way you put it of, you need to decide what, what side of the distance you might be on. Because that's something too that I remind parents of that say if their child is maybe an older adolescent, and the kid is just waiting and say, okay, well, that's fine. You're not going to let me do X, Y, Z. When I'm 18, I'm out of here. I'm gone. I'm saving up money. I'm, or I'm going to do it whether you, you know, uh, take hormones, whether you agree or not, and then you can't say anything if they're an adult, then yeah.
What side of that divide are you going to be on and what happens to that relationship with your child? If you cannot support them in that way, or like you said, choosing other people, hurtful family members over them. And that's a really hard message to send to your kid. So as hard as it may be for you to say, Oh, maybe we can't see this person anymore. Or my kid can't see this person anymore. It's a whole lot harder for your kid to be hurt in that way. So I think that's something to, to keep in mind what you said earlier, and acknowledging that it is hard that like, you know, not saying it's easy to separate yourself from family. And so, yeah, that's going to be really hard and it sucks. And, but this is, this is the reality and this is your kiddo.
Well, I'm wondering what advice you might have for people who want to get involved in whether it's standing up for trans people, working for trans rights, or maybe even transgender people who want to be more vocal and visible with their story like you have, what advice would you have?
Ben Greene: I think to anybody, whether it's a parent or a trans person, sharing your story is one of the best things that you can do, because most people, while it can be easy to feel like, from social media and the news, like, everything is awful, everybody hates us, and everyone has already picked a side, and most people are against us. I travel around the country and around the world to rural areas and constantly am bracing myself to find hate and everywhere that I go,
instead, I find curiosity, confusion, maybe some fear, some embarrassment, but it is so rare that I actually find hate. And even among in places where there is hate, there is a profound amount of love to counter that. And so sharing our stories. You know, only four in 10 people say they've ever met a transgender person. So being a transgender person, being open about that, sharing your story at work, you know, apply to give a TEDx talk, find platforms to share your story.
Uh, cause that really does make a difference to people that all of a sudden it's not this nebulous political issue. It's my neighbor, and whether or not he can go to the doctor. It's my co-worker's kid, who can't, you know, play sports anymore. We become real. And it's such a hard ask to say humanizing ourselves, because we are humans. But, sharing our stories does make a really profound difference. Now, obviously there's further to go than that. And so I would say acknowledge that you're joining in right now, you're not going to be the expert and that's a good thing. You want to learn from the experts and there are so many ways to get involved. People immediately think of like testifying at the Capitol, calling your legislator, and protesting on the streets.
People are like you know, five hours from the Capitol, or I don't want to go to a protest, or whatever it is. It sounds like I can't do advocacy, but there are so many things that advocacy looks like. So finding out who your local LGBTQ organization is, you know, kind of on a bullseye approach for how much impact you want to have. The more local you can get, the bigger of a difference you will be able to make with your individual donations, words, and actions. $10 to the ACLU, that's a drop in the bucket. I don't know where that's going. $10 to my local trans support organization. That's a meal on somebody's table who is not going to get to eat, but for that $10. So getting involved locally is also a great way to learn. Where do we need people right now? In terms of allies in particular, you know, I've got a ceiling on the people that I can reach, in terms of the spectrums of support. A lot of people in my life, I'm, I'm very publicly transgender, which means that my social circles are self-selecting. So while I do talk to everybody that I know about trans rights, at some point everyone knows that I'm transgender, and the people who truly had an issue with that have, have left. They are not in my life anymore. And there are a lot of people who aren't going to come to a presentation that I give. Who aren't going to listen to this podcast, who aren't, they already know what I'm going to say. And in many ways, they're right. I try my heart, my best to be, you know, surprising and to be really open and conversational.
And there are a lot of people who aren't interested in starting that conversation with me, but they trust you as an ally. That's your pastor. That's your neighbor. That's the person who, you know, you're on the PTO board with. People who might not listen to me, trust you. And we are much more likely to be open to change, open to new information if it comes from someone that we already trust. You can make such a huge difference just by talking to the people around you about trans rights. It might feel uncomfortable, might feel like a new muscle. So look up a couple of good sources. You don't have to be an expert, but just to say, Hey, did you hear what's going on in our state legislature this week? This is really challenging. Here's what this might do to my family. Or did you know that, you know, in Missouri we had eight anti-trans sports bills proposed last year and we had five trans athletes. Putting that issue in context for people. So finding out what's the messaging I want to share and knowing how to say, I don't know.
I love getting to tell people. That's a great question. I don't know. Here's the resources I trust. I'll show you how I would get the answer. So now you're equipped to answer it for yourself next time. And I know that answer for next time. You don't have to be an expert to talk about this, to make it normal to ask questions, to establish that you're a safe, non-judgmental person for someone to come to. Having those conversations is going to make a huge difference in terms of, you know, getting involved and changing hearts and minds.
Mandy Giles: I yes the, the change on the personal level is really, well, like you said, the bullseye approach really even further than your local LGBTQ center, maybe even someone in your family, or you think like your neighbor, to hit a couple of things we've talked about. I am finally, talking to my parents and my brother soon about kind of the work that I do and really drilling down on myths and vocabulary.
Cause I think I did what you said probably I shouldn't have done was like, my kids are transgender. Here's what you can say. Here's what you can't say. So let's move on. And maybe haven't had that space to ask the questions. And so knowing where my family is on the political spectrum, it may be difficult, but I know that we're going to talk about it, and we're going to have those conversations and hopefully, like you say, will be a safe space for them to ask those questions and I will try my darnedest not to be judgmental and no, I won't, to really accept those, those questions with grace and let there be questions and just remembering where I was maybe eight years ago. And so, yeah, definitely. And then those micro-interventions I think are a great way to it's that's advocacy to me on the personal level for sure.
Ben Greene: Yeah, that's personal advocacy that just has such a huge potential to make such a major difference.
Mandy Giles: Well, thank you so much for your time today. Oh gosh. I cannot wait to get my hands on your book. When did it come out? What are, what's going on with it and where can people find it and find you?
Ben Greene: So the book, the full title is My Child is Trans, Now What? A Joy Centered Approach to Support. Uh, and that joy centered, I told my publisher this is a must have, must be in the subtitle, because it is so important to me that joy is at the center of everything that I do. And it comes, it just came out, it came out on May 7th, which I just cannot believe it's finally here. I, I've been working on this book for the better part of six years now,
Mandy Giles: Oh my gosh!
Ben Greene: Yeah, it's been a passion project for so long. So I cannot believe it's actually out there. If you want to find me, definitely look up, you know, Ben Greene. I'm on social media as @pseudo.bro, because I am your, I'm TikTok's trans older brother. I do a lot of affirmations and kind of very wholesome posting on there.
Ben Greene: Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I'm, I'm just so excited. Please feel free to reach out if there's something I can do to support you professionally, personally, my website is BGTransTalks, uh, because I'm trans and I talks, uh, I came up with that in college and it could have been better, but we're locked into that domain name now.
Mandy Giles: It's perfect. It's perfect. I love it because people will remember it. So, uh, listener, if you want to show gratitude for Ben and his work and his wisdom and his time, then please go buy his book and I will put a link to all of these things in the show notes and also in the description, um, in the episode.
So again, Ben, thank you so much for your time and I wish you the best of success.
Ben Greene: thank you so much for having me. This has been delightful. Thanks for listening, everybody.
Mandy Giles: All right. Talk to you soon.